hifi.slovanet.sk

[Troton]

[opa]

Doporučuji nahlédnout, je tam kompletní dokumentace ke všem současným produktům, kompletní schémata, hodnoty součástek, použité polovodiče. Mám na mysli hlavně analogové obvody, zesilovače, ať už signálové, výstupní, nebo koncové.

Zajímavý je třeba výstupní obvod k diskutovanému komponentu.
AD744 posílený diamond bufferem. Operák má výstupní obvod proudovým zdrojem přetažený do třídy A. Výstupní tranzistory mají proudové omezení (ochrana proti přetížení).

A nebo předzesilovač, vstupní dvojice JFET, z proudového zrcadla do "kompenzačních" vstupů NE5534 a diskrétní koncový stupeň opět ala Diamond. To jsou věci.

[PMA]

Sedmsetčtyřicetčtyřka už je velká historie, ani vstupní obvod není optimální, a značně šumí (JFETy s degeneračními odpory 300 ohm!!). Jediná výhoda je možnost použít výstup před klasickým podvyživeným operákovým koncovým stupněm, který je navíc u tohoto OZ opravdu příšerný.

[Hasňa]

Ergo? Musim se zeptak Hogyho, az prostuduje tu dokumentaci. Ideal proste asi neexistuje.

[babaudio]

Hlavne si vsimnite ako dokonale vyriesil napajanie, diskretny MCLK, a reclocking SPDIF a LRCLK signalu pre ES9018.

Klobuk dole, vyborny studiijny material !

[britishaudio]

mám žiaľ zlu správu.... prvá zásielka do EU príde len v januári 2011.

zo série 8200 dorazili len monobloky 8200MB

[Hasňa]

"..Preamp (8200CDQ) uses a fully balance true differential signal path - not one, but two DA6116 stepped attenuator are used per channel (resulting in a fully balanced dual mono attenuator). Line level pre amplifier relies on high quality relays to select between the single ended line level sources, which is then converted into a balanced signal path via a pure class A biased stage (eight single channel BJT opamps biased in class A via discrete active CCS) – then onto the gain control stage (four BJT opamps biased in class A via discrete active CCS) – finally to the fully balanced Class A output stages (four single channel J-fet opamps biased in class A via discrete active CCS and terminated by hi-current discrete diamond buffer)..."

[britishaudio]

zlá.... prvá verzia 8200CDQ je vypredaná - nemala trigger
dobrá... januárová séria už bude mať TRIGGER !!!

nakoľko výroba nedokáže reagovať na velký dopyt o 8200CD a 8200CDQ, preto objednávky z našej strany budú vybavené postupne podľa registrácie objednávok od zákazníkov.

PRAJEME VÁM KRÁSNE, HUDBOU RUŠENÉ SVIATKY

[Hasňa]

A i jsi poslouchal, nebo jen prodaval?

[britishaudio]

[Hasňa]

Mezivanocni update v kauze CDQ8200:

JohnW ruzne v ramci vlakna rika:

..First production of the CDQ’s with trigger output option is scheduled for mid January.


..The CDQ also has 3 additional filters.
Minim Phase – This approximates the “Apodising aka Apodizing filters” type filters.
Optimal Transient XD - Extended Definition, but looses a little on L-R sound stage over the standard Optimal Transient filter to my ears.
Optimal Transient DD – offers a “Bassier” sound which some may prefer over the standard and XD Optimal transient filters, but looses out on detail and sound stage.


..From our listening test the CDQ beats every unit we have tried it against, and it’s the best design I have released onto the market. The ESS DAC is very good, but it’s not without its limitations. Dominik and I are in discussions with Semiconductor partners to Fab. our own DAC design - wither we go it on our own or with a Semiconductor vendor depends - but this is a longer term project, like 1 to 2 years. At the end of the day, I genially believe the CD/CDQ to be the best DAC's at anywhere near there price - with the CDQ, I would not be afraid to be in a direct shoot-out with the likes of the DCS DAC’s. But then its not DAC’s that should be considered “The Standard”, but Analogue turntables – then things are stacked in the turntables favour… if we are as anywhere as good as say a GBP3000 turntable I would be extremely happy – but alas I would not bet my money on it… Just listen to a turntable from Arthur at the Funk firm…. How many designers are prepared to admit this? (I've not heard Arthur’s new designs, but I'm totally confident of his design skills, I'll never forget the first time I listened to his Anniversary Turntable with the PIP2 and Quad ESL63's). To my ears, the Optimal Transient filter(s) are the closet approach yet to a humble turntable.


..I stand by the fact that a Hi-End turntable blows the socks of any Digital system I've heard to date - EVER, and I've spent the best part of 25 years as a DAC / Digital designer - anyone who says otherwise needs to listen to live music more to understand where I'm coming from (and it’s not just my opinion). I'm afraid we have traded convince and instant access for quality - a theme that effects every aspect of our daily lives, Digital TV over Analogue TV, DAB over FM etc.

..Yes, I fully agree that true “AAD” recording do sound better then most ADD or DDD recordings. As I understand, AAD should indicate direct from pre-mixed analogue tape to CD, where as ADD indicates Analogue tape, but remixing (Re-Mastering) in the digital domain - but the real lines of the definations are "Blurred".
It’s become apparent that we don’t fully understand the sonic effects of processing the data in the digital domain, the effects of dithering, data truncation, digital filtering. So the more “Digital” processing that’s incurred, the less “Real” the final production becomes.
I have some AAD recordings that are unbelievable – and who really cares about a slightly elevated noise floor for older Analogue recordings – I for one don’t!
One of the promise of digital was the reduction of analogue hiss, however I find the sound of “digital processing” far worst then good old analogue hiss –its not just a simple case of adding dither, although it does dramatically help. In many ways, AAD recordings are self dithered – in the quest for “Zero” noise, correct dithering was an area overlooked with early DDD recordings, thus there totally abysmal sound quality.
For many years, I’ve have been working to understand areas of digital reproduction that make me wish I still had a turntable – I cannot say much about the work until Patents are filed – but if we do manufacture our own Silicon ADC / DAC then they will incorporate this work.
Digital filtering is one major area of our work that has been incorporated into the 8200 digital products. This is no better highlighted on the CDQ, where the three variations of Optimal transient filter (Standard, XD & DD) serve to indicate the importance of “second order effects” – there is no difference in Filter response for each of the 3 OT filters, but each sounds very different. These filters are based upon IP gained during the development of our FPGA based DAC’s. We understand what’s going on, but we cannot say much more without affecting our own competitive edge at this time. We can reveal more once our own DAC IC’s are launched onto the market.
One very important area of our design is the “Clock Tree”, not only insuring a low phase noise clock, but that it is distributed with Low Phase noise to the relevant critical areas.


..Q: Could you describe the sound of this “digital processing”?
A: A good question, to describe in general terms from my experience:-
Hardness, Sibilance, Fatiguing (you cannot read a book, while the system play’s softly in the background – you get annoyed and turn the volume down).
Loss of “Real” definition, Clapping audiences now sound like pelting rain, Cymbals / Hi Hats loose there “metalicness”, loud Choral passages in classical music sound like some form of intermodulation distortion is happening they get hard and bright, causing you to quince your eyes, waiting for them to subside…
Loss of space around each instrument / vocals… very narrow sound stage, does not wrap around you, just L/R between speakers…
The difference between the distortions that occur from turntables / Tape machines etc is that it also naturally occurs around us (noise, frequency response irregularities, ***Natural distortions***), while Digital produced “Distortions” do not naturally occur in our everyday environment, so our "brain" finds them far more offensive.
*** Yes a contradiction in terms granted, but I hope you can understand what I’m trying to describe.
As others have already commented, to its credit, CD did improve the quality of the lowest common denominator, recall the awful Amstrad “music systems”, plastic turntables, cheap ceramic cartridges, awful tape decks that miss-tracked, you could even hear the Wow and flutter, not to mention the collapse in high frequency response when Dolby C was engaged,… Yes the general public got a much better reply system with CD, but as with all aspects of life, the highest level of quality became mediocre at best.
Case in point, I grow up listening to a chorus of Ford Cortinas trying to start there Engines in the wet damp London mornings as everyone rushed to work – cranking the engines for minutes at a time. You could hear the engines cracking slower and slower as the battery's quickly run flat – it was a daily race between the inevitable outcome of the WD40 & a jump start…
However the rich neighbour next door would just jump into his Mercedes and whoosh he was gone… without ever a moment of hesitation…
However now days, cars like to Ford Mondeo are so much better quality (due to a large part to Digital car electronics) – that they are a have improved the “average” quality level, where as the quality of cars such as the Mercedes has just been reduced to such a point that you find yourself questioning if you where not a fool, and should have just bought a Ford instead…
That’s what I feel CD / Digital has done for HiFi…
Music is my life and passion – that’s why I’ve dedicated the best years of my life trying to wrought the very last ounce of performance from an uncooperative medium.
Digital reproduction can produce excellent results – just listen to some AAD recordings, and you shake your head and saying – if they can, why do so few others.


..The Optimal Transient "filters" have been developed by Dominik and myself, nobody else as far as I'm aware is currently using them - although I'm sure they will be "Reversed Engineered" soon enough - and although they can be copied, we have many tricks up our sleeve that will not be understood but those who choose to copy the filter coefficients.
In Technical Measurements, the Optimal Transient filters are extremely poor; they have been solely engineered for sound quality - use the Optimal Spectrum if you have a need for best measurements!


..CDQ has something like 1700.


..CDQ models that are fitted with Trigger outputs have 3 modes of operation:-
1. Simply follows the Power Switch on CDQ.
2. Auto Standby Mode: - Detects Analogue or Digital inputs, Toggles the Triggers after a pre-defined Time.
3. Triggers into standby when Headphone Jack inserted (and be selected for the above modes).

..I can understand Pavel Dudeks scepticism to “burn-in” periods for electronic equipment – but I clearly hear the change when I get fresh units from the production line – as I say most change occurs in the first 24 hours from new. A new unit sounds hard, cold, on there bright side, narrow sound stage.
I can only but this down to the Electrolytic capacitors “reforming”, E-Caps have lower and Flatter ESR curves when “warm”.
The effect is more notable on the 8200CD with its general purpose E-Caps – over 8200CDQ/DQ with there higher quality Low ESR Caps – This might be due to the Low ESR capacitor types better “initial” quality. Once a unit has been burned in, then they need atleast half an hour warm-up to sound “on form”.

[Kuba4]

Nechci pořád rýpat, konstruktérům se seru do práce jen výjimečně, ale spíše než řešit spínací napětí, dráty přes celý přístroj nebo nepřístupné vypínače na zadních panelech, mi přijde logické udělat tlačítko na čelním panelu a mechanicky, třeba nějakou tyčí, ovládat samotný vypínač vzadu u vstupu síťového kabelu.

Každopádně se mi CDQ líbí, dobrý nápad, na komerční řešení dobré provedení, cca 32k Kč mnohými akceptovatelná cena.

[PMA]

[PMA]

Ad "zahořování" - podle mě jde hlavně o zvyknutí si ucha na zvuk jiného komponentu, což nějakou dobu trvá, a přisuzuje se to "zahoření" součástek atd.

[Hasňa]

Ad spinac: Aspon budou mit co delat specialiste na postprodukcni tuning, ze Hogy? Novy stroj je vzdycky kompromis. Na nove Bawo si taky nekteri kupuji lepsi tlumice, lepsi gumy, lepsi filtry, a lepsi audio. Vyhovet tem par jedincum, kterym tyhle male kompromisy vadi se firme nevyplati a uspory jsou ve velkych seriich velke. Dav je spokojen, fajnsmekri si to upravi sami.

Ad zahoreni: Vidim to stejne.

[BV]

[PMA]

BV:

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Downloading.aspx?Lang=En&Tab2=Manuals

[BV]

Ano, ale to je user manual, a nijako neviem nájsť" cast technical description je pomerne vyzivna. je tam dokonca aj servisny manual"

[PMA]

OK, měl jsem za to, že právě schémata v serv. manuálech jsou to nejdůležitější ..... na slovní popisy nás IMO moc neužije.

[BV]

Ale museli tam byť aj servisné manuály(schémy), pretože OPA napísal

[PMA]

BV: jdu to poslat ....

P.S.: už se to posílá, ale má to 7,5M, tak to bude chvíli trvat ..

[BV]

Vďaka.

[Hasňa]

JohnW: The output impedance of the CD, CDQ, DQ, MDAC & QDAC is basically zero ohms, the discrete Class A output stage is designed to drive long cable runs and Low impedance loads if needed... It's a "real" high current output stage.

[sounds77]

Prvá ,,zásielka´´ Audiolab 8200 je od štvrtka u svojich majiteľov. S kľudným svedomím je možné prehlásiť, že prístroj splnil očakávania.

[Hasňa]

JohnW: First CDQ's with 12V trigger are on the production line now, so it appears its takes about 3-4 months before they filter out onto the dealers shelves - I know Dominik was working on the updated software last week (to handle control of the 12V trigger).

[Fifino]

Splnil očekávání...???Zatím se ještě nikdo nevyjádřil ke zvuku,ani prodejce,který má neomezené možnosti porovnávat s jinými komponenty.Jako to např. udělal p.Roček z Excelia-hifi v případě OPPO BDP-83(SE),kdy jasně naznačil na jaké cenové úrovni se zvuk tohoto přehrávače pohybuje.

[sounds77]

Moje očakávania splnil. Nechápem spojitosť s ,,hodnotením OPPO83SE s mojím subjektívnym vyjadrením. Možno je zbytočné Vám vysvetľovať, že cenová politika firiem málo kedy korešponduje s úrovňou zvuku a často ani s s použitým technickým riešením. Len tak ,,mimo hru´´ Vami spomínaný OPPO 83SE bol použitý, lepšie povedané ,,jeho črevá´´ v niekoľkonásobne drahších prehrávačoch ,ak sa nemýlim táto informácia sa preberala aj na tomto fóre. Záver si urobte sám. Podľa vyjadrania slovenského dovozcu som zatiaľ sám na tomto fóre kto si ho objednal v prvej ,,várke´´, preto som sem hodil info, nič viac.

[britishaudio]

predajca sa môže vyjadriť k zvuku, ale vačšinou to neurobí (aspoň my už sa tomu bránime)...však poznáte, keď predajca sa vyjadruje, väčšina členov fóra to považuje za reklamu a tiež niekedy za neserióznosť...

k poznámke "zvuku" versus cenová úroveň....

naznačiť môže len kupujúci, či je spokojný alebo nie. každý z nás má svoje vlastne uši...my to predávame s vlastnými, Vy to kupujete tiež s vlastnými ušami. Ja tu už nechcem bojovať s nikým, mám inú, oveľa prosperujúcu prácu

o kvalite si môžete prečítať milióny recenzií a subjektívnych názorov. na základe týchto si môže kupujúci rozhodnúť, či má zmysel navštíviť posluchovku alebo nie... keď si to kúpi bez poslechu, je to jeho vec, keď rozhodne o kúpe po posluchu, asi to urobil v prítomnosti ôsvojich uší".

Na záver: vyjadrujem sa k 8200CDQ velmi krátko:

Je to zk***ene dobrý komponent... ale bez Trigger.

S Trigger bude za pár týždňov.

[Fifino]

O žádnou spojitost s OPPO nešlo.Cenová politika skutečně málo kdy koresponduje s úrovní zvuku,ovšem najdou se i vyjímky,proto jsem jako příklad uvedl právě OPPO BDP-83(SE).Vůbec nepochybuji,že je Audiolab 8200 z hlediska konstrukce a ceny výborným komponentem,jen bych byl rád,kdyby se někdo z majitelů vyjádřil konkrétněji k jeho zvuku,případně s čím jej porovnával.Někomu může splnit očekávání i komponent za tisícovku a někomu ho nesplní ani za 100t.

[alenzo]

Zdravím, uvažoval jsem o koupi tohoto zajímavého kousku a tak sleduji množící se informace na pinkfishaudio. Bohužel vypadáto, že práce Domika i Johna se znehodnocuje vrstvícími se zprávámi o různých závadách (praskající pojistky, vadné mikrospínače, nespínající relé u jedonoho z kanálů, chybně načítajcí OPU, bordel na výstupu). Je ke cti, že se oba snaží problémy rychle a operativně řešit a infa poskytují velmi rychle. Ale co si mi říká, že buď bude lépe počkat několik měsíců než se to vychytá či se poohlédnout jinde. Případnému zájemci doporučuji navštívit toto vlákno

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83778&page=99.